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Post by douglaswulf on Mar 9, 2007 18:20:46 GMT
You said "12 more episodes were logged as destroyed, yet 'The Lion' was also supposedly destroyed and it survived..." The Lion did not have *any* notation against it as to what happened to it, a status that also applies to *all* the Season Five Troughton stories. So to say it was deemed destroyed is incorrect. Jon Preddle But Jon, surely " The Lion" WAS officially destroyed, as it was sent to the landfill. If it wasn't actually marked "destroyed" by NZBC, then that reflects incompetence on their part. As the film was "destroyed" is the original reason the BBC wanted to charge me with theft of it! (no no no: flotsam, jetsam . . . ) Maybe that incompetence extends to erroneously describing other stuff as destroyed too. For instance, you say Macra Terror destroyed in 1974, but Neil saw it screened in the "late 1970s". So that story (Macra Terror) should be easy to trace. I'll do an advert in the next Film Buffs newsletter, inquiring for all lost eps by name, as that is probably what is written on the cans. Fingers crossed! (I can always barter my " Sooty" for it, if a Macra Terror turns up . . .) Bruce. I got the impression that 'The Lion' had been 'officially' destroyed by reading between the lines at the following website... nzdwfc.tetrap.com/archive/timeandspace/onnztelevision60s.htmlThe website states: ********** After the transmissions, the episodes from this batch were retained at the Wellington Hill Street film store and were logged as held there on 1 April 1970. The Reign of Terror was subsequently destroyed on 18 June 1971 and Planet of Giants was destroyed on 14 July 1971. The first episode of The Crusade, The Lion, was still held in storage in Wellington in 1975, at which time it was scheduled to be destroyed. The 16mm film print was rescued from dumping by film collectors and was held in private hands until January 1999 when it was discovered in the collection of Auckland film buff Bruce Grenville by fans Neil Lambess and Paul Scoones, who arranged for the film to be loaned to the BBC. ********** Jon notes that "The Lion did not have *any* notation against it as to what happened to it" so that would place it in the "fate unknown" category, I suppose. I had picked up on the words, "at which time it was scheduled to be destroyed" to conclude that it was in the "destroyed" category. Be that as it may, I think that neither empty film cans nor notations that prints were destroyed should be taken as complete proof of destruction. Francis Watson was instructed to toss 'Daleks' Masterplan 2' and took it home instead. Liberating prints instead of destroying them is at least a possibility to consider. Also, there was an Australian print of an episode that was fished out of a trash bin. Even if these episodes were probably destroyed, we can't be entirely sure that all of them were. The sighting of two episodes of Macra in the late 1970s is another hint of this also. |
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Post by douglaswulf on Mar 9, 2007 18:27:24 GMT
One way to not overwhelm them with too many titles would just be to add "...or potentially other 16mm prints of Doctor Who from the 1960s." I have just written an advert for the FBA newsletter: Dear Trevor,
Can you insert this advert for me in the next Film Buffs newsletter? Many thanks.===================================================== 16 mm reels sought:
The Macra Terror.
Five Hundred Eyes.
The Wall of Lies.
Rider from Shang-Tu.
Mighty Kublai Khan.
Assassin at Peking.
The Knight of Jaffa.
The War-Lords.
The Moonbase.I would like to buy any of these films, or will barter for good films from my collection. (Or would even be happy to borrow them for a short look.) Bruce Grenville =================================================================== Best regards,(Note I haven't given the FULL list of lost ep titles, don't want to overwhelm them with detail, but fingers crossed this advert brings something out of the various buffs' film libraries!)
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Post by Brian Wilson on Mar 9, 2007 18:57:25 GMT
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Post by inyotef on Mar 10, 2007 14:12:46 GMT
You will note the text of my FBA advert does not even mention DW. This is on the offchance that the reels are labelled with the episode title only.
Bruce.
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Post by jpreddle on Mar 11, 2007 9:00:53 GMT
I got the impression that 'The Lion' had been 'officially' destroyed by reading between the lines at the following website... ********* Jon notes that "The Lion did not have *any* notation against it as to what happened to it" so that would place it in the "fate unknown" category, I suppose. I had picked up on the words, "at which time it was scheduled to be destroyed" to conclude that it was in the "destroyed" category. Be that as it may, I think that neither empty film cans nor notations that prints were destroyed should be taken as complete proof of destruction. [\quote] ----------- Really? When film prints were destroyed by bandsaw, they were done so in the presence of several people for safety reasons. A signed affadavit was completed, and a copy sent to the BBC. To an employee of the NZBC to falsify an legal document is a criminal offence and would put not only their jobs on the line, but would also tarnish NZBC's reputation. For you to say that the documentation is not proof of destruction is like to saying those people responsible did not do their jobs properly! The documentation *I have seen* does not indicate what happened to the Lion. That doesn't mean there isn't other documentation completed at the time in which the junking was recorded. I am sure the fates of the 39 "unknowns" was recorded somewhere, just not in the paper-based registers I've seen. The NZBC did also have a computer-based system at that time, and more likely that not the junking data was noted there. Jon |
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Post by jpreddle on Mar 11, 2007 9:15:37 GMT
The Lion was officially JUNKED. That's a different fate than Destroyed.
The mass junking of films took place in 1973 because NZBC was moving operations from Wellington to the newly constructed Avalon centre in Lower Hutt. The old Harriet Street (not Hill Street) film store was closed down. It was easier to move the films from Harriet to the dump without being bandsawed because to put the several thousand (?) films through that process would have taken too much time. Likewise, to go through the paperbased records and write JUNKED against every single one of those entries would have been an onerous task to say the least, hence why the column is blank. As I've said in another posting the fact that the films were junked this way would have been recorded Somewhere, just not in the registers I've seen.
No, not incompetence at all - just a change in policy to suit the situation.
300-odd of those films got rescued only because the contractor hired to move the films called a film collector friend about it!
Jon
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Post by inyotef on Mar 11, 2007 12:50:12 GMT
Well, so this sort of thing is not new!
A friend of mine works as a contractor, and last year, the Auckland City Library had a serious flood in its basement level (where rare books that are seldom requested are stored.) After the library sorted what was "OK" and what was "ruined beyond repair", he got the job of taking cartons of books to the dump.
Most of those boxes ended up at his flat. He showed me some, and the water damage is so insignificant, you would hardly guess the books had ever been wet! Many of the rare books he has sent off to rare book auctioneers, and is over $1,000 richer (so far.) I was given a few, and he has kept a few for his personal library.
I thought this was a one-off situation, but maybe this sort of thing happens all the time, judging from Jon's remarks on the contractor calling a friend. It would probably have been better if the contractor had just driven to Johnstone's house and unloaded the whole truckload there!
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Post by douglaswulf on Mar 11, 2007 23:47:12 GMT
I got the impression that 'The Lion' had been 'officially' destroyed by reading between the lines at the following website... ********* Jon notes that "The Lion did not have *any* notation against it as to what happened to it" so that would place it in the "fate unknown" category, I suppose. I had picked up on the words, "at which time it was scheduled to be destroyed" to conclude that it was in the "destroyed" category. Be that as it may, I think that neither empty film cans nor notations that prints were destroyed should be taken as complete proof of destruction. [\quote] ----------- Really? When film prints were destroyed by bandsaw, they were done so in the presence of several people for safety reasons. A signed affadavit was completed, and a copy sent to the BBC. To an employee of the NZBC to falsify an legal document is a criminal offence and would put not only their jobs on the line, but would also tarnish NZBC's reputation. For you to say that the documentation is not proof of destruction is like to saying those people responsible did not do their jobs properly! The documentation *I have seen* does not indicate what happened to the Lion. That doesn't mean there isn't other documentation completed at the time in which the junking was recorded. I am sure the fates of the 39 "unknowns" was recorded somewhere, just not in the paper-based registers I've seen. The NZBC did also have a computer-based system at that time, and more likely that not the junking data was noted there. Jon Jon: Thanks for your reply. Several points… 1. Well, you certainly know more than I do about the details. You are aware of differences between band saw documented destruction and tossing films in the trash. 2. I’m not SAYING that the NZBC employees didn’t do their jobs properly. I am just HOPING that at least some didn’t! Aren’t you? If Francis Watson had done his job properly and tossed Daleks’ Masterplan 2 when he was told to do so, then we wouldn’t have it today. Doing your job properly in those days meant disposing of those prints in various ways. We can only hope that some didn’t do as they were expected. 3. We have had an eyewitness post here who claims to have seen two episodes of Macra Terror years after the affidavit was signed on its destruction. If you say the affidavit is absolute proof of destruction, then does this mean that the poster is mistaken or lying? We can’t know for sure. I agree with you that those 16 episodes officially logged as 'sent to the band saw' were almost certainly sliced and diced, but if two episodes of Macra resurface, we will have to conclude that the signed affidavit was in error. 4. Official paperwork can sometimes be incorrect and this need not be due to fraud. It can also be a mistake. The strong tendency is for it to be correct, but I would not be surprised to find some official notation that ‘The Lion’ was destroyed on a particular date (yet, as we know, it survived). It is largely via such oversights that episodes MIGHT have survived. 5. It does no harm in being aware of particular episode titles that, in the event that one or more of the prints somehow escaped the saw intentionally or accidentally, might theoretically still be in New Zealand. In my view, it is quite likely that all of the 39 + 16 episodes no longer exist in New Zealand. I'm just mentioning the titles that were there in New Zealand to begin with and then stating what supposedly happened to them. The official fates of the episodes may or may not be their actual fates. Doug |
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Post by jpreddle on Mar 12, 2007 5:16:56 GMT
3. We have had an eyewitness post here who claims to have seen two episodes of Macra Terror years after the affidavit was signed on its destruction. If you say the affidavit is absolute proof of destruction, then does this mean that the poster is mistaken or lying? We can’t know for sure. I agree with you that those 16 episodes officially logged as 'sent to the band saw' were almost certainly sliced and diced, but if two episodes of Macra resurface, we will have to conclude that the signed affidavit was in error. Neil is a good friend of mine - I've known him for over 20 years - and all due respect to Neil, when he first told me this story about seeing a DW episode at school, he said it was The Abominable Snowmen, part one; now he says it's The Macra Terror! While I'm not doubting he did see films at school, I do have my doubts as to what he saw, given the documentary evidence that says it was impossible for it to have been The Macra Terror. In a discussion we had about this "anomaly" a few years back, we did wonder whether perhaps someone 'borrowed' The Macra Terror from the NZBC film stores, screened it at his school, then returned them in secret! Of course, I do hope Neil is right! And if Macra ever shows up, then yes, I would then gladly accept the records can be wrong. But until that happens, I'm sticking with what it says on the bits of paper! Jon |
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Post by douglaswulf on Mar 12, 2007 15:52:19 GMT
3. We have had an eyewitness post here who claims to have seen two episodes of Macra Terror years after the affidavit was signed on its destruction. If you say the affidavit is absolute proof of destruction, then does this mean that the poster is mistaken or lying? We can’t know for sure. I agree with you that those 16 episodes officially logged as 'sent to the band saw' were almost certainly sliced and diced, but if two episodes of Macra resurface, we will have to conclude that the signed affidavit was in error. Neil is a good friend of mine - I've known him for over 20 years - and all due respect to Neil, when he first told me this story about seeing a DW episode at school, he said it was The Abominable Snowmen, part one; now he says it's The Macra Terror! While I'm not doubting he did see films at school, I do have my doubts as to what he saw, given the documentary evidence that says it was impossible for it to have been The Macra Terror. In a discussion we had about this "anomaly" a few years back, we did wonder whether perhaps someone 'borrowed' The Macra Terror from the NZBC film stores, screened it at his school, then returned them in secret! Of course, I do hope Neil is right! And if Macra ever shows up, then yes, I would then gladly accept the records can be wrong. But until that happens, I'm sticking with what it says on the bits of paper! Jon Jon: I agree with you that the "bits of paper" are almost certainly correct. It's just that if one of those bits of paper just happens to be wrong, then 'Macra Terror' would be a potential candidate for survival, whereas 'Tenth Planet' would not, for example, since the New Zealand print of 'Tenth Planet' was sent to Singapore and, if we confirm that it was actually broadcast there, this would be strong confirmation that it was no longer in New Zealand after a given date. Another way to look at it is that for 'Macra Terror' to have survived in New Zealand, one of those bits of paper would have to be wrong, whereas this would not be true for any of the 39 with an unknown fate. This kind of info relates to eyewitness accounts, such as we had posted here. I'm really not making any claims at all by grouping lists of episodes in this way. It seems to me a useful approach to looking for any remaining episodes. The 39 with uncertain fate are obviously by far the best candidates for recovery. The 16 that were logged as destroyed would indeed be real long shots, for the exact reasons you give. Feel free to rule them out entirely, if you like. However, the remaining stories sent to New Zealand do not seem feasible whatsoever (at least to me), since it seems quite certain that the prints were sent away. If they turn up again in New Zealand, it would really be by the wildest turn of fate (such as someone moving from Singapore to New Zealand and bringing the print back)! Anyway, no offense intended against all the fine former employees of New Zealand television. I fear that they were probably very efficient and hard-working people who made certain that the episodes were obliterated as ordered. Thanks again for your posting and detailed insights! Doug |
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Post by douglaswulf on Mar 12, 2007 16:09:18 GMT
Neil is a good friend of mine - I've known him for over 20 years - and all due respect to Neil, when he first told me this story about seeing a DW episode at school, he said it was The Abominable Snowmen, part one; now he says it's The Macra Terror! While I'm not doubting he did see films at school, I do have my doubts as to what he saw, given the documentary evidence that says it was impossible for it to have been The Macra Terror. In a discussion we had about this "anomaly" a few years back, we did wonder whether perhaps someone 'borrowed' The Macra Terror from the NZBC film stores, screened it at his school, then returned them in secret! Of course, I do hope Neil is right! And if Macra ever shows up, then yes, I would then gladly accept the records can be wrong. But until that happens, I'm sticking with what it says on the bits of paper! Jon Jon: Well, the return of Abominable Snowmen 1 would also be most welcome. As you say, the TVNZ records say that the episodes of Macra were destroyed on 27 June 1974. Neil says that he saw the episodes 'in the late 1970s' at school. Could it have been as early as 1973 or early 1974? If he indeed saw episodes at his school, then either: 1. He saw Macra episodes, but it was sometime before 27 June 1974, and he therefore remembers the time frame incorrectly; or 2. He saw them when he said he did, so Macra was not destroyed as the records state; or 3. He saw some other episodes and remembers them incorrectly as Macra. It seems that perhaps more investigation could be done on this. Perhaps other schoolmates would remember? Do they remember is also as Macra (or Snowmen)? Perhaps the exact date of the screening could be pinpointed? There seem to be a few clues to follow here. It's a tall order to investigate, but not completely hopeless. Doug |
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Post by jpreddle on Mar 13, 2007 4:50:23 GMT
Jon: As you say, the TVNZ records say that the episodes of Macra were destroyed on 27 June 1974. Neil says that he saw the episodes 'in the late 1970s' at school. Could it have been as early as 1973 or early 1974? If he indeed saw episodes at his school, then either: 1. He saw Macra episodes, but it was sometime before 27 June 1974, and he therefore remembers the time frame incorrectly; or 2. He saw them when he said he did, so Macra was not destroyed as the records state; or 3. He saw some other episodes and remembers them incorrectly as Macra. It seems that perhaps more investigation could be done on this. Perhaps other schoolmates would remember? Do they remember is also as Macra (or Snowmen)? Perhaps the exact date of the screening could be pinpointed? There seem to be a few clues to follow here. It's a tall order to investigate, but not completely hopeless. Doug The fact that Macra has a definite date against it to me indicates it was indeed destroyed on that date. Whereas Evil of the Daleks has no date, so perhaps the record was added retrospectively... Anyway, Neil and I have had many and long discussions about what he saw and when, and pretty much all of your three points above were considered... Jon |
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Post by douglaswulf on Mar 13, 2007 20:25:00 GMT
Jon: As you say, the TVNZ records say that the episodes of Macra were destroyed on 27 June 1974. Neil says that he saw the episodes 'in the late 1970s' at school. Could it have been as early as 1973 or early 1974? If he indeed saw episodes at his school, then either: 1. He saw Macra episodes, but it was sometime before 27 June 1974, and he therefore remembers the time frame incorrectly; or 2. He saw them when he said he did, so Macra was not destroyed as the records state; or 3. He saw some other episodes and remembers them incorrectly as Macra. It seems that perhaps more investigation could be done on this. Perhaps other schoolmates would remember? Do they remember is also as Macra (or Snowmen)? Perhaps the exact date of the screening could be pinpointed? There seem to be a few clues to follow here. It's a tall order to investigate, but not completely hopeless. Doug The fact that Macra has a definite date against it to me indicates it was indeed destroyed on that date. Whereas Evil of the Daleks has no date, so perhaps the record was added retrospectively... Anyway, Neil and I have had many and long discussions about what he saw and when, and pretty much all of your three points above were considered... Jon Jon: Very good. There is definitely a question about when to cross episodes off the list as a lost cause. My list of 39 + 16 is simply a list of episodes that there would be an explanation for if they turned up in New Zealand. If any others turned up in New Zealand, it would be like an episode turning up in Tibet or somewhere completely unexpected. By listing these 55 episodes, I don't mean to imply that I expect we will find any of them necessarily. It just gives the search a more specific focus. It would be useful to have lists of this sort also for other countries that broadcast missing episodes. So I take it that you have seen these signed affidavits of destruction for various episodes? Are any of the people who signed these documents still alive perhaps? I wonder if it would be feasible to look their names up in a current telephone directory, or perhaps their surviving relatives? I'm not suggesting calling them up to accuse them of falsifying records or to blame them for being a Nazi footsoldier in the destruction of our television heritage. Rather, I wonder if any of these former archivists might be willing to share their thoughts on the possible survival of some of these prints, now that the BBC welcomes the return of films with no threats of retaliation against those who may hold them today. Just a thought! Doug |
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Post by jpreddle on Mar 15, 2007 3:36:38 GMT
So I take it that you have seen these signed affidavits of destruction for various episodes? Are any of the people who signed these documents still alive perhaps? I wonder if it would be feasible to look their names up in a current telephone directory, or perhaps their surviving relatives? Doug The affadavits, no, I haven't seen them, and I thinkit highly unlikely they haven't been thrown way by now (7 year statutes of limitations notwithstanding). But yes, I have been in contact with a number of ex-NZBC employees who were involved in the movement, handling and destruction of the films. And also with the man who was in charge of the film stores at the time The Lion was junked, but he couldn't shed anymore light upon what we already knew. Jon |
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Post by inyotef on Mar 15, 2007 8:29:42 GMT
Anybody on this forum interested in coming to the Film Buffs Convention in Wellington, New Zealand? Date is 4th - 6th May 2007 (not June as I mentioned earlier.) The plus is that you can meet and talk with Bruce Johnstone, AND get the guided tour of Park Road Post, the plush post-production lab formerly the National Film Unit (and now part of the Peter Jackson Corp.)  If you are keen, message me & I'll give you the full details. cheers, Bruce. |
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