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Post by douglaswulf on Jan 28, 2007 4:39:35 GMT
Publicity seems to be one answer to getting more missing episodes of Doctor Who returned to the BBC (assuming more exist to be returned). How best to target such publicity to have the best chance of getting a result?
We do not need to publicize the issue of the missing episodes among fans of Doctor Who. They already know the situation. So who is the audience for such publicity?
One way to analyze this is what sort of message may have reached a person such as Francis Watson (holder of ‘Day of Armageddon’) or Bruce Grenville (holder of ‘The Lion’) and caused these episodes to be returned sooner than they were.
1. Former Television Employees – Francis Watson obtained his print of a missing episode by virtue of his job at the BBC. The people who are perhaps most likely today to be in possession of missing episodes of Doctor Who would be people who were employed in the 1960s and 1970s at places worldwide where these episodes were broadcast, stored, and (unfortunately) junked. Paul Vanezis recently tried contacting former BBC employees by placing a story in a BBC newsletter sent out to retired employees. Could more somehow be done? Would it be possible to try to get the message out to other broadcasters worldwide (or in select foreign markets)? That could be a tough assignment. To begin with, it would need to be determined which companies were involved in broadcasting, storing, and junking Doctor Who overseas and then see if there might be a way that the companies today (assuming they still exist) would allow for former employees to be contacted about this. It seems rather doubtful. Thus, it might be necessary to take an indirect approach and try to publicize in local publications that might be read by former broadcasters, for example. There may be organizations or online groups (such as on yahoo) through which the question of missing episodes might be raised. Basically, this is an important target audience. How might we reach these people?
2. 16mm Film Collectors — Bruce Grenville was essentially a collector of 16mm films. This is another target audience to try to reach worldwide. There could be people around the world who have prints of missing Who episodes by virtue of their interest in collecting films, rather than collecting Doctor Who. We should try to get the message out in publications, to organizations, to online boards, and so forth, that serve the film collecting community.
3. People Located Near the Last Known Whereabouts of Specific Prints — It seems to me that every missing episode returned was located near where we might have expected to find it, assuming it survived the junking. For example, ‘The Lion’ print was sent to New Zealand, survived the junking, and it was still in New Zealand when found. ‘Day of Armageddon’ was never shown outside the UK, survived orders to toss it, and it was recovered in the UK. There are records of other prints being junked in New Zealand and, if by some miracle they survived in the same way as the scheduled junking of ‘The Lion’, they are almost certainly still in New Zealand. The same goes for every other print that may have survived. Thus, it would be very useful to try to determine the last known whereabouts of missing episode prints (to the best of our abilities) and then target publicity to people in those geographical areas with specific mentions of those specific episodes that may have survived by chance.
4. Quantity — More publicity is better than less. While still keeping the key target audiences in mind, it would be best to try posting to a great many free lost & found websites worldwide, Craig's list pages, in newspapers, speak on radio, and so forth. The greater the volume of messages that get out in the world, the better the chances are of a result. That said, I think there are ways (listed above) to narrow the delivery of the message to hope to reach more narrowly targetted audiences.
Any thoughts?
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Post by inyotef on Mar 1, 2007 12:45:12 GMT
Yes, you are on target here Douglas. When I originally bought "The Lion" from a fellow film-buff, I was not aware that "lost episodes" were an issue, and assumed I had one of many prints, as you do when you (for instance) buy a second-hand book. (Even though that book could conceivably be the sole extant copy -- but who ever thinks that?) I am sure there are more DW films in New Zealand, and continue to hunt. From all the publicity over "The Lion", every member of the Film Buffs Assn (NZ film collectors' club) is now well aware of the subject of lost DW episodes. But it is the many hoards of film held by folks other than our 200-odd members that concern me, and we need a strategy to contact them. Just last weekend, I was involved in a major find: I had bought an old 16 mm film cheaply on Trademe (the NZ “Ebay” equivalent) www.trademe.co.nz, and had to drive many miles south to collect it. When at the guy’s house, after paying him and getting the film, I said “Do you have any other old films to sell?” and he showed me into his spare room where there was a mountain of old films, mostly in brown cardboard film cartons. Glancing over a few titles, I recognized them as the “better half” of the old Russian KGB film library, the poorer half of which I rescued from a dumpster bin back in the early 90s, after the KGB closed its Auckland office when the USSR disbanded. I made him a low offer for the lot, we haggled a bit, then I paid him and we loaded the lot into my car. A full boot load, and the entire back seat full: I did not think the car so heavily laden would make it back up the motorway! But fortunately it did, and when I got home and unloaded them, I was staggered to find “Battleship Potemkin” (1925), a classic epic by Sergei Eisenstein (though mine is the 1950 release with a soundtrack added and English subtitles), plus many other full-length feature films, and a number unlabeled, waiting to be screened to identify. I am viewing as many as I can each evening. There are unlikely to be any Dr Who episodes among this lot, but I think this serves to illustrate the point that there are many old films just lurking around out there, totally unappreciated and unremarked by those who have them. Surely a good strategy would be for everyone on this forum to become a 16mm film collector! Get a projector (usually cheap, as they are "obsolete technology!), screen stuff, buy everything you can if its cheap, sell unwanted films on Ebay, and attend film collectors fairs (which I gather are regular events throughout the year around the UK, and twice annually in NZ.) Best if you can contact a 16mm collector in your neighbourhood for some basic training... it is all very easy, but you need to know how to look after film, lube it, repair it, etc. As 16mm is such old technology, you will find that once all your relatives and friends know you like 16mm, they will steer lots of free film your way too. Ebay does big trade in second-hand film, and has an average of 2,000 films up on offer most weeks. So that means a lot of folk globally are keen on this stuff. But that would not have impinged on the brain of the guy who sold me the old Russian films, so I'm still unsure how we will ever reach his ilk. regards, Bruce.  |
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Post by chesterton on Mar 1, 2007 22:58:39 GMT
3. People Located Near the Last Known Whereabouts of Specific Prints — It seems to me that every missing episode returned was located near where we might have expected to find it, assuming it survived the junking. For example, ‘The Lion’ print was sent to New Zealand, survived the junking, and it was still in New Zealand when found. ‘Day of Armageddon’ was never shown outside the UK, survived orders to toss it, and it was recovered in the UK. There are records of other prints being junked in New Zealand and, if by some miracle they survived in the same way as the scheduled junking of ‘The Lion’, they are almost certainly still in New Zealand. The same goes for every other print that may have survived. Thus, it would be very useful to try to determine the last known whereabouts of missing episode prints (to the best of our abilities) and then target publicity to people in those geographical areas with specific mentions of those specific episodes that may have survived by chance.
This seems to me to be an excellent focus for research.
It may prove something of a paper chase but I expect it would all be very worthwhile in the end. Finding specific areas to target could prevent both needless duplication of effort and possible burnout by trying to do too much without clear focus to guide us.
Perhaps it should be priority Number One at this point in time, so we may engage in a concentrated collective effort that will eventually bear fruit.
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Post by chesterton on Mar 1, 2007 23:09:08 GMT
So that means a lot of folk globally are keen on this stuff. But that would not have impinged on the brain of the guy who sold me the old Russian films, so I'm still unsure how we will ever reach his ilk.
It is very hard to reach some people so I expect the random factor aka luck is still going to play a major role, as is the dogged persistence that you exemplify. That sounds like a fascinating horde of films to watch and, of course, you never know when you are going to stumble across some forgotten gem from the hundreds of lost serials that are lurking in some manky cardboard box that you have just acquired!
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Post by inyotef on Mar 2, 2007 0:36:25 GMT
Anyone on this forum is welcome to visit me and watch some (any time you happen to be visiting New Zealand!)  |
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Post by fatsothewombat on Mar 2, 2007 12:29:29 GMT
Bruce, do copies of British TV programmes (in general, not just DW) crop up quite frequently in NZ film collectors' collections or are they quite rare?
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Post by douglaswulf on Mar 3, 2007 15:20:26 GMT
Comrade Grenville:  What a splendid surprise to see your postings here. The internet is wonderful in its ability to put a person in contact with someone from the other side of the world. Well, let me personally thank you for being instrumental in bringing 'The Lion' back to us. I really enjoy that episode a great deal, so it is a pleasure to be able to communicate my appreciation to you directly. Thank you also, for that matter, for rescuing a bit of history by recovering those Soviet films. Your print of 'Battleship Potemkin' might be the best copy of that important film in the world or maybe contains footage edited or changed in other existing versions. Who knows what you have stumbled across, but there could be some crucial footage among those film cannisters. I am buoyed by your optimism that more missing episodes of 'Doctor Who' will be found. There seems to be a cloud of pessimism lately concerning the missing episodes. I think you are correct that more must still be out there and will eventually surface, especially if fans are proactive in searching. Well, that's what this forum is all about. Your contributions here breath new life into the project going on here. Again, so good to read your words here on the forum! Do svidania! Doug Yes, you are on target here Douglas. When I originally bought "The Lion" from a fellow film-buff, I was not aware that "lost episodes" were an issue, and assumed I had one of many prints, as you do when you (for instance) buy a second-hand book. (Even though that book could conceivably be the sole extant copy -- but who ever thinks that?) I am sure there are more DW films in New Zealand, and continue to hunt. From all the publicity over "The Lion", every member of the Film Buffs Assn (NZ film collectors' club) is now well aware of the subject of lost DW episodes. But it is the many hoards of film held by folks other than our 200-odd members that concern me, and we need a strategy to contact them. Just last weekend, I was involved in a major find: I had bought an old 16 mm film cheaply on Trademe (the NZ “Ebay” equivalent) www.trademe.co.nz, and had to drive many miles south to collect it. When at the guy’s house, after paying him and getting the film, I said “Do you have any other old films to sell?” and he showed me into his spare room where there was a mountain of old films, mostly in brown cardboard film cartons. Glancing over a few titles, I recognized them as the “better half” of the old Russian KGB film library, the poorer half of which I rescued from a dumpster bin back in the early 90s, after the KGB closed its Auckland office when the USSR disbanded. I made him a low offer for the lot, we haggled a bit, then I paid him and we loaded the lot into my car. A full boot load, and the entire back seat full: I did not think the car so heavily laden would make it back up the motorway! But fortunately it did, and when I got home and unloaded them, I was staggered to find “Battleship Potemkin” (1925), a classic epic by Sergei Eisenstein (though mine is the 1950 release with a soundtrack added and English subtitles), plus many other full-length feature films, and a number unlabeled, waiting to be screened to identify. I am viewing as many as I can each evening. There are unlikely to be any Dr Who episodes among this lot, but I think this serves to illustrate the point that there are many old films just lurking around out there, totally unappreciated and unremarked by those who have them. Surely a good strategy would be for everyone on this forum to become a 16mm film collector! Get a projector (usually cheap, as they are "obsolete technology!), screen stuff, buy everything you can if its cheap, sell unwanted films on Ebay, and attend film collectors fairs (which I gather are regular events throughout the year around the UK, and twice annually in NZ.) Best if you can contact a 16mm collector in your neighbourhood for some basic training... it is all very easy, but you need to know how to look after film, lube it, repair it, etc. As 16mm is such old technology, you will find that once all your relatives and friends know you like 16mm, they will steer lots of free film your way too. Ebay does big trade in second-hand film, and has an average of 2,000 films up on offer most weeks. So that means a lot of folk globally are keen on this stuff. But that would not have impinged on the brain of the guy who sold me the old Russian films, so I'm still unsure how we will ever reach his ilk. regards, Bruce. |
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Post by inyotef on Mar 3, 2007 23:31:09 GMT
Bruce, do copies of British TV programmes (in general, not just DW) crop up quite frequently in NZ film collectors' collections or are they quite rare? Umm, I really cannot say. All us film collectors have many & varied libraries, and I cannot claim to be familiar with other people's libraries. I think I am the only one in the Film Buffs Assn who has indexed his whole collection & put it online ( www.sedang.hm ) although that listing hasn't been updated for a while. All I can go by is what films I see coming up in the FBA convention auctions and sales tables. I am told there are missing episodes of other British TV classics such as "Steptoe & Son" & others, but have not seen much of that, if any. |
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Post by douglaswulf on Mar 8, 2007 20:45:04 GMT
We seem to know more about what missing episodes of Doctor Who might still exist in New Zealand as in any other place on earth.
Thanks to information from Jon Preddle, I have updated by New Zealand info as follows...
The 39 missing episodes believed most likely to still perhaps exist in New Zealand are:
From the story ‘Marco Polo’
(episode 3) Five Hundred Eyes
(episode 4) The Wall of Lies
(episode 5) Rider from Shang-Tu
(episode 6) Mighty Kublai Khan
(episode 7) Assassin at Peking
(The reused film can from Assassin at Peking was found in Wellington in 1990.)
From the story ‘The Crusade’
(episode 2) The Knight of Jaffa
(episode 4) The War-Lords
From the story ‘The Underwater Menace’
Part 1
Part 2
Part 4
From the story ‘The Moonbase’
Part 1
Part 3
(The reused film can from ‘The Moonbase’ Part 3 was found in Wellington in 1990.)
From the story ‘The Abominable Snowmen’
Part 1
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
From the story ‘The Ice Warriors’
Part 2
Part 3
From the story ‘The Enemy of the World’
Part 1
Part 2
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
From the story ‘The Web of Fear’
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
From the story ‘Fury from the Deep’
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
From the story ‘The Wheel in Space’
Part 1
Part 2
Part 4
Part 5
In addition, the following 16 episodes are listed as having been destroyed in the early 1970s, but there is a least a small chance that the records are in error and the episodes still exist in New Zealand:
From the story ‘The Reign of Terror’
(episode 4) The Tyrant of France,
(episode 5) A Bargain of Necessity
From the story ‘The Highlanders’
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
From the story ‘The Macra Terror’
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
From the story ‘The Evil of the Daleks’
Part 1
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7
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