possibility of lost dr who footage on 8mm cine

[Brian Wilson]

In the past there have been clips of Dr Who discovered on 8mm cine film. Some of these clips can be seen on the Lost in Time boxset. I think this is another area worth investigating.

I collect old 8mm cine film myself as I find the old footage quite fascinating. A dual format (std/spr) projector can be purchased reasonably cheaply and there is always a lot of old footage for sale on ebay or elsewhere. In the past few years I have picked up 2 400ft reels at my local market in Belfast at the staggering price of £1 each.

One of the reels was particularly interesting with footage in London around 1964/5 - including old red double-decker London buses and images of the front of a West End cinema premiering The Sound of Music. Another reel I purchased features a short clip of a BBC comedy show from the 70s.

My dad bought a cine camera in 1962 and filmed up until about 1983. Total of about 30 film reels - I transferred these reels to DVD a few years ago; my parents wedding, Christenings, birthdays, "first holy communions", holidays etc.. etc... One of the reels does feature a 15 second black and white movie clip filmed off the tv.

I was thinking about the possibility of footage existing on 8mm and decided to contact the companies and private individuals who transfer 8mm to digital/DVD/vhs for a living. I sent out some messages and so far have received four responses. 3 of these reponses are from major companies who make their livelihood in this line of work;

This reply is particularly encouraging:

"I do remember seeing a Dr Who clip a few years back. But I should point out that any footage I copy is in strict confidence with the client who owns the footage and I would not be able to provide any clips or information."

This reply came from one of the leading cine to dvd companies in the UK:

"Yes we have seen peoples cine where they have recorded of the TV, not very well I might add. The most popular being the moon landing. Probaly 1 in 30 customers has a few seconds of something from a TV. I'll keep an eye open"

This reply came from a company that advertises on ebay:

"I have copied films in the past with some tv images, though typically these are very short and generally feature a tv set within a general scene, so the actual tv image is tiny. Almost without exception the footage is of a news programme. Obviously successfully recording footage (and audio) off a tv in the 60s was well beyond the capabilities of most amateurs."

Another interesting reply. This company provided a fantastic link to their online archive with streamed cine/tv footage from the 70s. More links below if you want to watch the footage.

"We actually see a lot of filmed television clips here. Being in the States we most commonly see the telecast of the moon landing as well as episodes of Star Trek. I have yet to spot any Dr. Who, but there is a chance it exists. You may be interested in searching our Home Movie Archive.
www.homemoviedepot.com/home_movie_depot_archive.php

You may be surprised at what can be found in there. I did a quick search for "television" and found a few examples of people filming their televisions. Good luck on your search!"

I searched their archive and found the following 8mm cine clips all filmed off a tv screen. You can watch the clips online;

Old television clip - a Beach Boys concert, followed by some Star Trek and then a short tv commercial:

www.homemoviedepot.com/archive/view/wecoyle/246294.html

Kid on tv show:

www.homemoviedepot.com/archive/view/ctham128/227379.html

Kirby Scott TV show:

www.homemoviedepot.com/archive/view/lewthedrummer/305303.html

Brief clip of Elvis:

www.homemoviedepot.com/archive/view/peeweern1/234870.html

War of the Worlds. + other stuff;

www.homemoviedepot.com/archive/view/dotmpp/227450.html

This one features a clip of a tv broadcast on the 1960 Democrat Convention- clip is in the middle of the movie;

www.homemoviedepot.com/archive/view/roginsk/257725.html

Another example of tv/cine filming:

www.homemoviedepot.com/archive/view/dvmemoriesvideo/250955.html

It is quite possible there are clips of missing Dr Who on 8mm cine film - a lot of people used cine cameras in the 60's. Realistically though, the odds of finding any of these clips are not exactly high. Nevertheless, its always worth a try. Who knows? We could get lucky.

[pertweefan]

interesting but as it is american no chance of any doctor who i'm afraid. try an australian site as i'm pretty sure some home movie clips from "power of the daleks" turned up on the lost in time dvd.

[Brian Wilson]

pertweefan said:

interesting but as it is american no chance of any doctor who i'm afraid. try an australian site as i'm pretty sure some home movie clips from "power of the daleks" turned up on the lost in time dvd.

Jonathan,

I agree it is unlikely that we would find any missing Dr Who clips on that American cine archive. However, there are almost 10,000 cine films to view on that site. The majority of those films do not have search word attributes listed. People do emigrate, take holidays, trade and purchase films etc. . . Personally I wouldn't go so far as to categorically negate the possibility that there could be a Dr Who clip on that American site.

At any rate it is a fantastic archive - there are even some 9.5mm cine movies dating back to the 30s on that site.

Excellent suggestion regarding finding a similar site in Australia or elsewhere. If anyone has any luck with this please let us know.

www.google.com.au/

www.google.co.nz/



Another site worth keeping an eye on is;

www.alivestudios-memories.co.uk/movievault.html

No cine/tv on this site although there is some excellent footage well worth taking a look at. Also, they hope to expand their online archive in the future.

From their website:

"This section is a brand new feature to showcase some of the very best cine footage that has been transferred to DVD by Alive Studios. If you've had film transferred that you think the rest of the world would enjoy seeing, then let us know your name and job number and we'll take a look at adding your film to this wonderful archive.

We hope to expand this section gradually over the next 12 months, eventully becoming the best cine film archive site in the world... watch this space!"

General message: In case anyone is thinking of emailing this company asking about Dr Who clips, I have already done that - we don't want to badger these people.

[Arthur Dent]

pertweefan said:

interesting but as it is american no chance of any doctor who i'm afraid. try an australian site as i'm pretty sure some home movie clips from "power of the daleks" turned up on the lost in time dvd.

I live in Oz, I could help. A couple of years ago I sent five letters to Nigeria asking about missing episodes. There were several of us that did this. I got one reply through email. The organiser Bill Spiby offered a cash incentive for each episode found. The guy who ran the TV station(I forget his name) claimed to have several missing dr who films. When we asked to have the film(s) sent to us to have them verfied for contents, he wanted the money. We then knew he was only after the money. At this time Bill had to turn everything over to the BBC for official reasons. That's the last I heard of it all.

[johnsmith]

How much was he asking? and how much was the incentive?

[Arthur Dent]

Bill offered 1000 pounds sterling for each. The Nigerian asked what are you offering for them.

[johnsmith]

thatts interesting!.
A reward was offered and the finder never asked for a higher price.
But then if he was scamming, he would have taken what was on offer and ran.

Was it obvious that he was only after a quick buck?

[Arthur Dent]

It seem to be.

[pertweefan]

on other forums there is a story about thousands of boxes of 16mm film in zambia. Might be a long shot but if it is still there AND in reasonable condition would it not be possible to try to verify in some way this story?

[Brian Wilson]

pertweefan said:

on other forums there is a story about thousands of boxes of 16mm film in zambia. Might be a long shot but if it is still there AND in reasonable condition would it not be possible to try to verify in some way this story?

I think it would be best leaving this sort of thing to the RT team/BBC. Contacting foreign tv stations is an extremely delicate matter and would be best handled by the professionals who already work in that field.

For the time being I think our efforts should be focused towards raising straightforward publicity in whatever ways we can. There are a number of ways we can do this...

1) Organise radio interviews.

2) Call up live talk radio shows all over the world - many of these shows are listened to across the globe on internet radio etc... so its always worth a try. Always worth a try.

3) Send the story to a local newspaper.

4) Advertise in your local newspaper - we can also advertise for Dr Who related 8mm footage (stuff like that footage of Hartnell on The Doctors - 30 years DVD) Some people might even have old photographs from celebrity appearances featuring Hartnell or Troughton. Any of this stuff would be a great find and would be sure to raise our esteem/merit within the Dr Who fan community.

5) Advertise online. Douglas Wulf has already had the bright idea of doing just that.

These 5 approaches may not seem very much. However, if you consider just how many radio shows and newspapers there are throughout the world and also in the countries that matter, its clear that we have quite a lot of work ahead of us. In these areas alone are options are, to quote Northern Irish poet Louis MacNeice, "incorrigibly plural".

Brian.

[douglaswulf]

pertweefan said:

on other forums there is a story about thousands of boxes of 16mm film in zambia. Might be a long shot but if it is still there AND in reasonable condition would it not be possible to try to verify in some way this story?

Yes, I was the one who started that particular discussion about Zambia. The right people seem to be aware of it, so there's where it stands. Brian is right about what our efforts can be.

[douglaswulf]

Hey, love the graphic with the projector, the TARDIS and the projected clips of Hartnell and Troughton! Good job with that!

[douglaswulf]

pertweefan said:

on other forums there is a story about thousands of boxes of 16mm film in zambia. Might be a long shot but if it is still there AND in reasonable condition would it not be possible to try to verify in some way this story?

Although it is tempting to place an ad to the Zambian population in general in the Times of Zambia, for example!

www.times.co.zm/?file=show_doc.html&id=2850&setLang=uk

[inyotef]

pertweefan said:

on other forums there is a story about thousands of boxes of 16mm film in zambia. Might be a long shot but if it is still there AND in reasonable condition would it not be possible to try to verify in some way this story?

Oh to be a 16mm collector in Zambia!

[willzurhorst]

Maybe the bbc could do somthing on the world service. As a lot of africians listen to it.